Wide-ranging interview with the English historian. Which talks about Putin, Ukraine, the rise of the right in Europe and the USA. And of a destiny that depends only on us.

Europe that risks returning to the starting blocks. Everything we have conquered since 1945 must be defended in every way from the temptations of those who want to go back. The subordination of the moderate right to the extreme right. And then Putin, Trump and Biden, whom he would ask to speak for five minutes to ask him not to run again. The British historian Timothy Garton Ash talks about everything, in Italy to present his latest book “Patrie. A personal history of Europe” just published by Garzanti. And he does so with the awareness and concern of those who think that the moment that we are experiencing is the most classic of history’s watersheds and that the destiny that befalls us depends entirely on us and on the choices we will make.

Let’s start from the end of his book, Garton Ash. Where you ask yourself if, after the invasion of Ukraine on 24 February 2022, we are destined to return to square one. She says that until recently she never imagined having to ask herself this question, but today she does. So: what is the answer?

I answer her with a game. Imagine someone fell asleep in 1943 and wakes up today, eighty years later. If he fell asleep in Berlin or London he would wake up thinking he was in a wonderful world. If he woke up in Ukraine, he would think that almost nothing has changed. There, we really came full circle.

What does it mean, then? That in fact the period between the end of the Second World War and today was nothing more than a great parenthesis?

No, I don’t think we can talk about a parenthesis of history. Europe has transformed in these eighty years. And even more so from the end of the Cold War to today. We have built the best Europe in history. For example, Estonia did not exist in 1989 and today it is a free country. You can take a cheap flight and arrive in a free, safe, prosperous country. And the same goes for the European Union, a dream that seemed unattainable just thinking about it, until 1945. The problem is that all this was an attack, that things are going in reverse now. Today the big issue is how to defend everything we have conquered.
And how do we defend it?

Meanwhile, learning from our mistakes. The main one of which is to think that peace was something that should not be defended. That economic interdependence was the trick to preserving it: if we are dependent on Russian oil, and Russia on our goods, we will never go to war. Nice illusion, as it turns out.

So what? And so first of all, we must help Ukraine fight and win. And we must defend ourselves from this type of aggression. And to do this we must also win against those millions of our European citizens and compatriots who agree with what Salvini says, the one who wore T-shirts with Putin’s face, because it is more convenient to turn away

Let’s start from a premise: Vladimir Putin is the closest thing to Adolf Hitler that we have known from 1945 to today. It’s not the same, but it’s the closest thing. He is a fascist. And the fascists must be defeated. Having said that, I believe that you just need to be prepared to fight. If Putin understands that the West is ready to fight him, he will never fight it.

What is certain is that far-right parties in Europe continue to grow. And many of them, from the League to the Rassemblement National, up to Alternative fur Deutschland, don’t think exactly like you about Putin…

Another small premise: I believe that Putin’s regime has the genuine characteristics of fascism. While the European right are nationalist, populist and xenophobic forces, yes, but they have little to do with fascism as we know it from a historical point of view. This is not to say that they are not a threat to European values. When you let boats full of migrants sink because you are afraid of foreigners, you are violating a key principle of united Europe

Not only that, but the action of these parties is pushing the Christian Democratic and liberal forces to the right. And it is breaking every sanitary cordon that existed to marginalize these extreme right-wingers. The far right and the Christian Democratic right are allies in Italy, Finland, Sweden and if they had won also in Spain. Even in Germany, where it was the last of the taboos, there is an ongoing debate in the CDU whether or not to ally with the AfD.

She called her book “Patrie”. The militants of the European far right define themselves as patriots. In your opinion, is the concept of homeland the disease or the cure?Patriotism is love for one’s country. Nationalism is hatred for other countries. I believe that the difference is all here. I am very pro-patriotism and very anti-nationalism. I think it’s wonderful to wake up in Paris or Berlin as an Italian and still feel at home. May it be wonderful to be aware that we have multiple identities and multiple homelands.

Will we continue to have them, or will we go back to the point that we will only have our homeland left against all the others?

It depends on us. When things were good, we thought they were destined to be good forever. Likewise, now that everything seems to be going backwards, it makes us think that it is inevitable that it will happen. But it is precisely what has happened in recent years that must convince us that this is not the case, that it depends on us. Nothing is inevitable. Not even the return to nationalism. And the Polish elections that will take place in a few weeks are the first crucial test, for example. It depends on the Poles: do they want to keep a populist and nationalist regime that is destroying their rule of law, or do they want to change?

There will also be important elections in the United States in exactly one year. Sam Bankman Fried, a billionaire now in prison, apparently wanted to offer Donald Trump 5 billion not to run again. How much would you give him?

Did he present the Monopoly “get out of jail free” card? Here: Trump wants that, not five billion dollars. Because if he isn’t elected president, he goes to jail. Would you give it to him, that card? I would even give him a hundred billion. Jokes aside, I just returned from the United States and found a country worse than I left it: sad, angry, impoverished and violent. If they were to point a gun to my head and ask me who will win in 2024 between Trump and Biden, I would say Trump.

This is what Putin hopes…

Not only he hopes so. He is working to make it happen. Because if Trump wins, he keeps Ukraine, he can continue killing and bombing elsewhere.

Bad question: how much would he offer Biden to not run?

I would like to talk to him for five minutes, if I could.

And what would he tell him?

That he was a great president. That he beat inflation, which he is creating. Lots of jobs. That he is pushing hard towards the energy transition. And that he is doing a great job in Ukraine. I would ask him if he wanted to be remembered like this in history books. Or like the one he lost against Trump. For it to happen, this is how he would be remembered.

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Francesco Cancellato
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Francesco Cancellato is the editor-in-chief of the online newspaper Fanpage.it. From December 2014 to September 2019 he was director of the online newspaper Linkiesta.it. He is the author of “Factor G. Why the Germans are right” (UBE, 2016), “Neither exploited nor big babies. Resolving the generational issue to save Italy” (Egea, 2018) and “The Wall. 15 stories from the end of the cold war” (Egea, 2019)
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Not only does he hope so. She is working to make that happen. Because if Trump wins, he keeps Ukraine, he can continue killing and bombing elsewhere.

You mean question: how much would he offer Biden to not run?

I would like to talk to him for five minutes, if I could.

And what would he tell him?

Who was a great president. That he beat inflation, which he is creating. Lots of jobs. That he is pushing hard towards the energy transition. And that he is doing a great job in Ukraine. I would ask him if he wanted to be remembered like this in history books. Or like the one he lost against Trump. For it to happen, this is how he would be remembered.